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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
122
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Posted - 2013.04.08 21:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Another "Lets gimp the Amarr even further and call it Improvements" thread.
Seriously CCP Rise, what are you honestly thinking of when it comes to these changes? This is quite possibly only the second time of my playing EVE (just over 7 years) that I've actually been physically angry at the amount of missing of the point that you have done (the point being your desk, and your missing it being beyond the periphery of the Milky Way).
Let me start with the quite frankly insane ship first: The "I'm an Armageddon! No wait, I'm a Mini-Bhaal! No wait, I'm a FUPORS*" *ask me in game what this means
Starting off:
The Armageddon is designed to sail deep into the enemy lines and pummel the sweet bejebus out of anything that exists in EVE with its lasers bringing death and destruction to the enemy. The Drone bay is there for a supporting role, not as the main armament - the Gallente are the race you go for to insult everyone's son and mother with drone hordes. I accept that this is somewhat confusing but I'll let it pass. A launcher mainstay is more in keeping with the Khanid Kingdom, and when I last looked the ship wasn't painted in the colours of the Kingdom.
Removal of the Laser Cap bonus is a massive kick in the teeth - Amarrian ships already suffer from some of the worst capacitor ratings in the game, and have the worst drain: No other race can cap themselves faster than an Amarrian vessel trying to repair, fire its guns and maintain a decent speed. The cap bonus to laser's gave us a decent chance at staying in the fight long enough to actually kill the enemy before our capacitor was fully gone; without it, our capacitors are effectively HALVED in value.
I will not deny that the Amarr are one of the slowest races to alter their ships designs, but practically cloning a PIRATE vessel's designs and then fobbing it off as their own is downright insulting to the lore of the game. Think about it, why would the Amarrian Empire want to be associated with poisonous Blood Raider technology/ideals? And then sticking said technology on to their most common battleships is again, insulting.
Having the Armageddon regarded as a Combat battleship is also wrong - It is in every way an ATTACK battleship. Its stats should reflect that:
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: 10% bonus to Large Energy Turret capacitor use 5% Large Energy Turret rate of fire per level. Slot layout: 7H(-1), 4M(+1), 7L(-1); 7 turrets Fittings: 16500 PWG, 550 CPU(+65) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800(+331) / 7500(+859) / 6500(+389) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6200(+887.5) / 1087s / 5.7 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 105 / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 21 Radar Sensor Strength (+4) Signature radius: 450 (+80)
The Amarr Empire realised that after constant observation of the Armageddon Class battleships, a few revisions were required to bring it up to code with the newer elements brought from the other empires. They did not change much, but what changes they made have created a more credible ship of the line, albeit at the cost of a larger hull and weaker locking range
In that, all I've changed is - it has gained a little bit of a tank (not massively so, but enough to make a bit of difference), it can keep the energy/rof bonus, gains a little bit in CPU, looses the utility slot and keeps the large enough drone bay. It keeps its current role, fits in the with the ideals of the background of EVE, and most importantly - Doesn't demolish another ship to get sorted.
The Apocalypse is the other ship that has been hit FAR, FAR too heavily with these proposed changes. I admit that it's navy version is currently one of the most powerful ships in the game which I hope it stays as, but its junior version is somewhat out of sorts. The proposed changes will further lessen the usage of that ship, to probably much wonderment by the Design Team. This ship is screaming Combat Battleship; designed as it was to pummel the enemy from long range and within a specialised team with Armageddon's/battle-cruisers/cruisers as Close Support ships and vaporise the larger ships before pulling back or being overwhelmed.
The additional 7.5% bonus to tracking is frankly pointless. Yes, I know it means I can shoot the wings off a Probe at 15km's away, but if they are that close, then its game over anyway - No amount of help will save you.
And didn't you mention that in a Devblog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/back-to-the-balancing-future/) that the Apocalypse was perfectly fine anyway, and labelled as a Combat Battleship? The same was said about the Armageddon as well. Clearly that this was forgotten over the months.
I would start pointing out the rest of the flaws of the Apocalypse, but everything is pretty much turning into a red mist and I feel I could descend further into apoplectic rage. I will continue this tomorrow, and point out what can be done properly.
Point out my flaws by all means. Just make sure they are constructive.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
123
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Posted - 2013.04.08 21:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Also, can we stop with the roleplaying? We are talking game balance here, lore has no place here
Actually, yes it does. Ignoring the rich role-play background that this game has generated over the last 10 years merely to make ships "uniform in design and function" whilst having effectively different skins is NOT the game I want to pay CCP for. I like ships having unique abilities, or at the very most, somewhat similar stats. Classifying ships as either Attack/Combat/3rd option is fine - it gives players a little bit of extra help.
Going by the racial background history will show this. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
125
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Posted - 2013.04.08 22:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:Ok, so other then being a couple of monkeys and flinging **** at each other, none of you are providing facts to back up your arguments, simply spouting off about why your own opinion of it is the right one. Why not shelve it, wait for the changed ships to be put on Sisi, and actually test it out, rather then making assumptions?
Because Pelea, without informing CCP of our concerns, what we fear will happen in future expansions, any work that they do after it is placed on SiSi is almost too late.
It needs to be worked on before even setting foot into the SiSi docks, and only once it has been agreed (to a reasonable degree) that the changes being made aren't horribly overpowering, then released to the SiSi server.
I would so much gladly wait a year for this to be sorted out and finished correctly, rather than forced through the servers once again. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
127
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
There is a distinct lack of a dev response in this thread: I've counted nearly 15 responses to the Gallente thread to which I pull this quote:
CCP Rise wrote:I've been watching the other threads as well, there just doesn't seem to be as much to comment on in the others. I'll go do a lap through them now to make sure I haven't missed anything big.
Not so much to comment on/missed anything big? I would say from below your first (and only) post, CCP Rise, onwards is where you need to comment on.
Please talk to us. You seem far far more concerned about the Gallente line than any others. Understandable to a degree, but without anything coming back towards us, it makes for a terrifying prospect: That you don't give a damn.
Some of us want to know that this game is not going to become EVECraft Online. With these changes currently, you undermine the abilities of TWO seperate ships; The Bhaalgorn and the Dominix, and give the ship your replacing them with too much to handle.
You also remove the safety net from the Armageddon/Apocalypse with the laser cap bonus. The Abaddon never had it anyway, and that was its weakness.
I don't want to have the Amarrian ships as Ultra-All-Powerful ships; that would make the game boring. Conversely, changing their designs so radically is just as painful.
Small changes first:
General
- Dropping the launchers from the Apoc/Abaddon: Fine, never needed those launchers anyway.
Armageddon - ATTACK Battleship (Not a Combat Battleship)
- Reduce the Drone Bay of the Geddon down. Its doesn't need to be that huge. Thats role of the Dominix. 150m-¦ is large enough - Remove the 10% Bonus to drones, return to 5% ROF for the lasers. Drop the launchers. - If you are so damned fixated on giving us a Neuting boat, make that the T2 Abaddon. Drop the Neut bonuses for below: - Give the geddon a 5% Armour bonus (In line with the Auguoror) - Drop the speed to 100m/s - Lower the targeting range to 55km.
Apocalypse - COMBAT Battleship (Not an Attack Battleship)
- Remove the 7.5% tracking bonus from the Apoc. Give it back the 10% Laser Cap - The Apocalyse is to return to its previous Shield/Armour/Hull values. - Increase the Sig Radius - Less Agility - Drop scan res to 90mm
Abaddon - ATTACK Battleship
- Return the resist value to 5% - Decrease Armour/Shield/Hull value by 5% - Reduce locking range to 70km's
As you can see, these changes are small, and enough so that each ship has a role - The Armageddon takes the flack of the enemy fire whilst giving back some punishment - the Apocalypse targets those priority targets at ranges and blasts them back - the Abaddon pushes forwards and blazes all hell into the middle of the enemy.
If they don't suit them, alter them a little bit at a time - you don't dive headfirst into a well to see if there is water in it.
Again, I won't be around much until later on. Peel these thoughts apart if you so wish. lets hope they read this.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
127
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Din Chao wrote:So... I guess my Navy Geddon just became worthless...
Lucky, your Navy Geddon is safe - it pulls its bonuses from a different list. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
127
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Posted - 2013.04.09 13:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
[quoteAre the faction versions of these battleships also going to have these changes ?][/quote]
The Faction ships are drawn from a seperate table - their values are going to be untouched for the time being. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
127
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Posted - 2013.04.09 14:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:I'll leave this right here: http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73530By CCP Ytterbium Armageddon: this ship is performing well at the time being, and thus we have little reason to alter it. Apocalypse: is behaving well at the moment, so there is little point in changing it. Abbadon: a nice ship with fine purpose in fleets and large gangs.
I referenced that Dev Blog already :D Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
128
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Posted - 2013.04.09 16:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
SMT008 wrote:First, what is the long-range neuting BS ?
Second, I'm pretty sure I saw turret slots too on this Armageddon. What's forcing you to fit missile launchers ?
I think the poor person is getting the Bhaalgorn's neut/nos increase confused with range - but the problem still stands; you cannot have a ship that is 1/10th the price of the Bhaalgorn do its job better.
The second point is that it is going to be offered a split weapons system, with no bonuses to either. Fitting Lasers would be pointless, as you'll eat the cap too fast, the launchers are nigh on worthless at battleship size, hybrids are too weak/so in your face its criminal and then you have projectile weapons - which does not fit the design philosophy of the Armageddon
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
128
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Posted - 2013.04.09 17:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
Let the Gallente have their drones. Let the Caldari have their missiles.
I have my faith in Plates and Lasers.
and Ranger 1, the quotes should be the other way around Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
130
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Posted - 2013.04.09 20:47:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kerdrak wrote:Why most players are always against changes?
Why are some players instantly willing to accept everything that given to them?
We argue these changes because we fear what EVE will become. We argue these changes to prevent genericness spilling into every race - We want EVE to be hard. We want EVE to be the game that makes us swear and curse at the other guy, until we get the sweet satisfaction of watching their ship explode.
We also don't want it to go too far - these changes will make the Armageddon massively over-powered - able to drown anyone in a drone death ball, as well as performing the same devastating abilities as the Bhaalgorn for 1/10th of the price: that is a dangerous prospect indeed when you can cap-kill a capital ship in a matter of moments with 10 of them, and still come out cost wise less.
By all means, allow yourself to wander towards EVECraft. I'm going to be manning the walls and stopping it as best I can. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
132
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Posted - 2013.04.10 06:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
According to the Minmatar thread, we are meant to be seeing an update on ALL the ships posted at some point today.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
132
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Posted - 2013.04.10 13:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Insignificant Changes
Well, good way of grasping the thoughts on the thread there. Lowering the Armageddons by 3000? Oh no, guess that means Ill just stick on a couple of 20% rigs, BOOM its back up to standard the 16k PG. And can still flail with the 7 Neuts of stupidity. And the drones that can have a 150% bonus damage and hit point bonus, and another 10% if the racial specs are included. And thats before the inclusion of any mods/implants that help boost drones.
CCP Rise wrote:While we understand that this is a very powerful ship, it should not be oppressive.
Clearly you do not understand the concept of oppressive. It's current abilities are able to be countered successfully. Sticking on Neuts and Drones of Doom will make it Oppressive. Small Fleet fights will be nullified by just a handful of these ships, and larger ones will devolve into "Who can neut the capitals first"
Go back to the drawing board, CCP Rise. You have barely addressed any of the concerns held within this thread and, please do not believe for one minute that you will have that hideous Armageddon getting into the game in the state that you propose.
Or do you want me to actually produce a proper Armageddon design for you?
I also hope that you consider the other issues put into this thread, namely:
- Inability to mount top tier weapons (Tachyon Lasers) - Reduction of effective capcitor by 50% from the removal of the Laser Cap bonuses - Removal of the need to have Cap Boosters as a standard fitting (be it actually useful cap sizes or the return of the Laser Cap bonus - Cap regen amount is NOT helpful ) - Removal of the split weapons on the Armageddon
I would post more complaints, but I am currently on my lunch, so my time is limited. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
132
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Posted - 2013.04.10 17:38:00 -
[13] - Quote
They are pretty much gambling that players will cross train over into the other races, once they see that the Amarrians are producing battleships that are as combat effective as the Minmatar are architecturally sound (i.e, shoddy)
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
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Posted - 2013.04.10 22:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:So...after the first shock and disbelief from yesterday has worn off I am right now sitting here, sipping a Martini and thinking about those changes in a calmer state of mind while the alcohol is slowly killing a bunch of unnecessary braincells. (Didn't want them anyway)
The changes to the Amarrian battleships look quite interesting on second look, and i think it's a good time to be an Amarrian battleship pilot.
Abaddon: Almost nothing has changed, will stay as popular as ever.
Apocalypse: I am falling more and more in love with this ship and I already know that the ConflApoc will be my favorite battleship in EVE. Just needs a bit more armor. I didn't do the math, so I cannot say anything about CPU or PG.
Armageddon: I used to love the old Geddon, such a drastic change makes me sad. But even in the case that it turns out to be a bummer like the Dragoon, it offers a lot of room for different fun fits to play around. A funny little toy and potentially a deadly killing machine.
Sadly , I have to disagree with you on both the Apoc/Armageddon points - The Amarr have little options in the way of fittings, that is well known. However, your Conflag Apoc won't have much of a survival time when put into the heart of battle - Your cap will last you only a very short while even before these changes, and even less without. Your armour, while still somewhat significant, is a paltry level and unless you trimark up your ship, your going to go down fast.
The Armageddon isn't going to be fun for anyone - Its taking on far too many roles and is akin to juggling chainsaws which are also rotating mini chainsaws around the main chain blade which are also on fire: It will end up a horrible horrible mess that no-one will want to go near.
*edit*
I know people may think of me as being backwards, but I prefer the Amarr ships as they are currently - untouched until they can actually give us what we want. The Caldari/Minmatar/Gallente may need the changes - you even mentioned it yourselves CCP : The Amarrians have the perfect set of Battleships. Don't go changing them for change sake. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
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Posted - 2013.04.10 22:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
I know that the Dev's are looking at the other threads when they can. However, the single actual dev reply was hardly helpful.
I still seriously fear that these changes are going to be implemented without proper player input. Rather nice they snuck them inbetween CSM's..
I don't believe however Lillith that the Navy BC's will become all powerful - They will be around the 175m+ ISK mark after prices have settled - Battleships will still be more cost effective after fittings. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
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Posted - 2013.04.11 06:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
Narjack wrote:What are you talking about? The APOC is cap stable at 100% with MWD off and its cap booster running. And because of its insane range it doesn't have to burn much in a fight. With conflag and MWD off its 80% stable while boosters last. Or are you talking about PVE stuff?
Its can still hold its cap stability under the pressure of a heavy nuet. 4 mintues under 2? In comparision a Mega will often struggle more with cap in fights since it has to burn nearly all the time to get into range. I'm just not seeing the cap issue here unless your talking PVE, which I don't know, why mission in a boat that you can't change damage type?
It should never, ever be a forced requirement to have a Cap Booster on a ship. Yes, i know certain builds drain cap faster than others, but having it have it installed as a base requirement, prior to anything else, is criminal - it shows that the cap drain, regardless of other design elements, has been implemented to be WHOLLY unviable.
Take it this way; you buy a new car from a dealership, only to find that the fuel tank has a range of 10 miles. "Oh-ho" says the salesman, "We have this optional upgrade that will give you another 300 miles, but adds an additional continued cost of $50 a day, before your fuel"
You believe that is fair? Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
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Posted - 2013.04.11 12:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Why are people becoming fixated with making the Apoc either a 6 or 7 turret ship, all to give it a measley 5% dmg bonus per level, which would in turn fall into the purview of the Abaddon?
There is no need to adjust the Apoc's turret layout. It is designed for long range combat - to eliminate the enemy from range with a full broadside of electromagnetic radiation. What would you possibly fit onto the free slot either way? Utility slots are better suited to the Armageddon - the only time I will most likely agree with CCP Rise in this factor.
If CCP are utterly convinced that they need to change the Armageddon design for the upcoming expansion, make it more like the Augoror - a ship designed for POSITIVE cap warfare;
The Armageddon platform was re-engineered circa YC115 in concert to supplement the Augoror; While the cruiser vessel was useful for small patrols and mid-sized cruiser warfare, when placed in a heavy combat situation, the Auguror was left floundering. The Armageddon has been given the power transfer coils from the Auguror, and housing them within its heavily armoured hull allows the ship to provide aid to its sister ships in the field, all the while turning those that seek to its charges harm to ash
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonuses: +10% to Large energy turret rate of fire +10% Energy Cap Transfer amount per level (replaced large energy turret cap use)
Slot layout: 7H , 4M , 7L; 6 turrets Fittings: 14500 PWG(-1500), 550 CPU(+65) Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 5800(+331) / 7500(+859) / 7000(+789) Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 6500(+1187.5) / 1087s / 5.7 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 100(-5) / .13(+.002) / 105200000 / 18.96s (+.29) Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125 / 125 Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km / 110 / 7 Sensor strength: 18 Radar Sensor Strength (+1) Signature radius: 450 (+80)
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
133
|
Posted - 2013.04.11 13:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
You can get Mega Pulse II's out to 96km's with Scorch and two TC's with range bonuses.
Drop a Heat Sink from a low slot and stick in a TE and get a bit more range/tracking thrown in. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.11 20:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Meduza13 wrote:This guy went straight to the point, I hope CCP Rise you reading it carefully. We still havent got the answer.
I don't think he will answer for some time yet. He has (at time of writing) 45 pages to actually rather than just breezing to find the posts that say they like the changes. I've started to get the feeling of having No Confidence in these changes.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.11 21:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
Meduza13 wrote:Mr Hyde113 wrote:I'm just going to keep posting until we get actual revisions. Well so there will be at least 2 of us.
Make that 3.
Hell, I'll keep posting variants that should actually get a design that is worth it. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.12 11:32:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Rise - can you stop relying so much on the much vaunted "metrics" for ship balancing? By claiming of their accuracy, you are claiming the impossible. Data is only accurate at point of capture, after which regardless of how often it is looked at, it starts becoming more and more inaccurate - especially in a game like EVE.
And please pray tell, how many players here have actually said they like the changes wholehartedly? I have been checking this thread daily, and I have seen very few accept the changes as are, and a few that have gone "I like the changes you've made, however XXX needs to be altered"
Using the voice of the silent majority as an indicator of acceptance is dangerous - I know I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but I am absolutely and utterly PETRIFIED at what is happening to EVE's most iconic race.
I am utterly utterly hoping that you re-consider the changes you are wishing to implement on the Armageddon. They are completely at odds with the race as a whole, inconsiderate to the background of the ship itsself, and utterly ruining two other ships.
I admit I am no game developer, and that you don't have it easy, especially with the Odyssey deadline looming somewhat close - but even I can see the Armageddon, released now, with its stats as is, would be MASSIVELY overpowering, confusing to the pilots flying them, and generally getting underused in PvE as it would have no physical use in it.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.12 11:40:00 -
[22] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:DO NOT even dare to come any close near the Navy Armageddon and Navy Apocalypse... Oh I'll be coming near them pretty soon alright =) I think you'll be happy though.
Try me. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.12 12:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations?
And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.12 12:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote:Arline Kley wrote:Michael Harari wrote:Have you taken a look at how difficult the geddon will be to tackle in small gang situations? And multiply that by a factor of 10/100 (depending on fleet size) and you can quickly see how OP the new Armageddon is. Well large fleets normally dont fit tackle anyway, or have it on dedicated ships like sabres or lachs that can do it.
Except you have 9/99 others to then deal with, all of which can insta-cap the tackler. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
134
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Posted - 2013.04.12 13:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
Avald Midular wrote:CCP Rise wrote:Quote:I do hope you take another (deep) look at the cap issues though. There are a lot of ways to solve them. We really have looked at them. Fozzie was running level 4s yesterday easily in a pulse Apoc without sacrificing many slots. Not only can you run them, but you gain a lot of offensive capability because of the tracking bonus and the increased speed and agility. I think you will find its not a very painful shift - but again, public testing will give us a better idea. How did it go when he tried them in beams? How about tachyons? Probably not because he couldn't even fit them to see if there are cap issues. The fact that the Oracle can easily fit tach's while the entire T1 BS lineup is the only racial lineup that can't fit our own weapons is ridiculous and has received a lot of (unanswered) attention in this thread.
of course they won't get any attention, as it is working as intended [/sarcasm] Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
135
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Posted - 2013.04.12 13:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
As I mentioned in my post all the way back in page 12 - this is a "Gimp the Amarr, Call it Improvements" thread.
They won't talk about Tachyon lasers as they know it points out every single flaw in their redesign situation. and I like how the moment I post, CCP Rise disappears for lunch :P Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
135
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Posted - 2013.04.12 14:05:00 -
[27] - Quote
Quote:That's the new Amarr racial theme, they've given the armor thing to gallente with the the 8th slot and now a third of Amarr ships are missile, now the new theme is can't fit our own weapons anymore without PG mods and cap rechargers.
So the Amarr theme is what now exactly? Suddenly finding out that our Empress is infact a Xenomorph Queen with a ridiculously high disguise stat? Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
136
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Posted - 2013.04.12 17:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Already replied to that thread.
Its still not enough of a reduction cap wise, or powergrid wise. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.13 10:41:00 -
[29] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:PS: While CCP has not turned me into a fan-boy, the past few days worth of data on their thinking/plans has allowed me to 'see' where they are going .. and it might work, but damn do they have some data mining in front of them to tweak this complete shake-up of ten years design philosophy over the coming years. PPS: Still need more info on thinking/plans .. more, you hear MORE!
Veshta - I have been staunchly against these changes since they were announced. Not because I am against change - far from it - but because of what they the changes are based on, what they have ignored, and the negative impact they will have on this line of ships. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.13 10:54:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pattern Clarc wrote:I can see the general trend of load handfull of people staunchly against the changes, and the vast majority silenced by the win and awesomeness amarr is once again bound to become.
Things can only be argued on subjective, personal grounds now, as functionally, these ships are damned good.
Highlighted the point I wish to argue - The vast majority are not silenced by the win and awesomeness. The vast majority barely recognise that these changes are coming along, or care so little because they don't realise how much of a violent shift this is until it is too late. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.13 17:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Ashlar Vellum wrote:I do want tech1 shield tanked amarrian ships.
My rage is so absolute that you just made me freeze helium. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.14 18:21:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:I can't think of YET ANOTHER way to tell CCP, that they got a wrong man for the job.
But that is only for when the changes are entered in game, and despite the pleas and requests from the player-base that these changes are fundamentally broken, perhaps a more physical request (letter) would be needed. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
Quote:Guess this tiericide business will drag on a bit if the aim is to afford same opportunity to all the races :D
You mean bastardise the hell out of them, then have game design flail around wondering why people aren't flying them and then suddenly MAGIC! They are re-released as the Navy Issue ships.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Do not type crap like that without verification. Tempest CANNOT fit a full rack of 1400 T2 witout usign a T2 RCU and after that it barely can fit the MWD with NO tank. Stop spreadign LIES
A shame. A single module and no MWD? We have to put rigs on our ships to get the best out them. Which while not a negative in its own right, shows a utter fundamental flaw in the design and balance.
Loki Vice wrote:Captains Log Day Six: Bad2 or CCP Rise has yet to show up, hope of a non bad armageddon dwindles.
I have abandoned all hope anyway.
CCP have absolutely zero intention of actually listening to us, since we can provide no metrics. And since Metrics is all they understand, its safe to say, we're boned. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
138
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Posted - 2013.04.18 13:37:00 -
[35] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote: Not saying that beams are not expensive. But stop spreading lies about other races ships. That is childish and just make the developers ignores the rest of your post because they KNOW the truth.
I wasn't attempting to spread the lie further, merely pointing out that while it costs you a pair of modules to fit your ship, we have to go for a far more expensive and penalising option. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
139
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Posted - 2013.04.19 15:45:00 -
[36] - Quote
The battleships are now on Duality.
Please please test them out and show CCP how badly broken they actually are. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
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Posted - 2013.04.19 16:21:00 -
[37] - Quote
Tonto Auri wrote:Arline Kley wrote:The battleships are now on Duality. Oh, so, that's what the CCP's answer to us? "Chew your meal with mouth closed"?
Pretty much. After a quick flail, the Armageddon is, as feared, MASSIVELY dangerous.
37.5km sphere of Neuting death.
GG CCP.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
142
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Posted - 2013.04.19 16:58:00 -
[38] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Arline Kley wrote:Tonto Auri wrote:Arline Kley wrote:The battleships are now on Duality. Oh, so, that's what the CCP's answer to us? "Chew your meal with mouth closed"? Pretty much. After a quick flail, the Armageddon is, as feared, MASSIVELY dangerous. 37.5km sphere of Neuting death. GG CCP. I'm stuck at work for the time being, which is unfortunate. What fits were you trying? All Neuts? If so, how did fittings go... and how did your cap hold up? I'm really curious on this one, as it can be fit so many different ways. (By the way, you might explain this in more detail for those that think Neuts are useless.)
Cap lasts 1 minute 15 seconds, with 3 cap rigs (2x cap increase, 1x cap size) and a cap recharger, with 7 Heavy Neut II's Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
142
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Posted - 2013.04.19 17:06:00 -
[39] - Quote
Ranger 1 - I could mount the standard 3xEANM II / 1xDC II - tank was around the 66k mark. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
145
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Posted - 2013.04.20 08:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ok then - lets get a mini-mass test going, since we'll need to see how they fair in a PvP situation as well. ;
I can be on Duality this afternoon (16:00 EVE Time) Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
145
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Posted - 2013.04.20 15:27:00 -
[41] - Quote
Ok, i'm in Duality now - if you want in, just join the "Amarr Test" channel. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
146
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Posted - 2013.04.22 13:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bouh/James, in the words of Grand Moff Tarkin - "This bickering is pointless"
What we currently need to to do is present CCP with actual information, proving to them that the redesigns are flawed, not poke and winge at each other over near-trivial issues.
Bouh - in your post you reference that the Minmatar/Gallente should be the solo PvP champions; I would like to disagree the point that it is just those two races: the Amarr are designed to operate within small groups, however that should not preclude them from having a ship class that can also go toe to toe with its nearest rival - otherwise no one would ever fly the other races outside of PvE
I am all for a certain balance of racial abilities; while each having their own flair and sense of being, to suit everyone's play styles and not to produce "use X ship with Y fittings = win" designs that just bore the hell out of the game. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
147
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Posted - 2013.04.23 07:26:00 -
[43] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:if that is CCP giving me the finger they are welcome to finger me 'til they drop!
Somewhere, a member of the Ministry of Infernal Affairs has just sat bolt upright growling "HERESY" through rapidly bloodying teeth :P
Still, it will be quicker to construct an actual Harbinger than it will be to get a CCP response to our thread. Methinks they are panicing about a Festival of Fandom, rather than the changes that they have planned. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
147
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Posted - 2013.04.24 13:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Yeah, I guess part of the drawback to so much active participation in the thread earlier is that now people worry we are gone.
You make it sound like its automatically a bad thing to try and talk to the player base.
We worry when we don't receieve any notion AT ALL that the issues we have been raising are actually being properly looked into. You mentioned the concerns that people raised about the Tempset and then in the same sentence, stated they overinflated and oversimplified the issues: Its difficult to get the developers attention to physical flaws in their redesigns when you do such, to which I can understand your personal frustation at times, but we don't see the raw data that you guys do. We don't have access to the tables of ship data, or the golden idol of CCP Guard, so we have to make do with what we get.
CCP Rise wrote:After our last round of reviews we still feel that Amarr is likely in the best place it can be for Odyssey.
Wrong, wrong, wrongity wrong.
They are much worse off than they are before - with the puny reduction in cap/powergrid useage that you guys have so magically graced us with, our capacitor drain is still far and above the other races. Flavour is one thing; Physical gimping to promote an ideal that has no place in EVE is utterly insulting.
CCP Rise wrote:We will keep watching closely as everything heads to sisi and if more adjustments are needed we will make them.
I'm highlighting that particular word to show how vague a statement like that is. "If" determines that you must agree that these changes are infact wrong and that the current incarnations are actually perfectly fine. However, that same conditional also gives you the power to claim utter superiority to the playerbase who have made it consistantly and publicly known (i.e this thread) that these changes will have a negative impact on the race, and ignore them. Changing that to a "when" still gives you a conditional that if the initial changes are stable, they will remain in place, but also determining that you are not going to ignore the evidence that is presented before you that when shown that these changes are infact the hinderance as we have made known to you, that they will be either reverted (a dream, so highy unlikely) or altered to make them viable.
Alas, I feel that the former is going to be used here. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
149
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Posted - 2013.04.27 07:44:00 -
[45] - Quote
Nariya Kentaya wrote:and that devblog from a while back? the one that said amarr BS were fine? and i do believe there was a dev post that even said, if they were going to do EWAR for amarr, they'd be looking at a new hull (it was only one dev post when he was asked, but i recall it being made).
It has been mentioned several times to CCP about this Dev Blog. It seems however that in some design stage they decided to screw over the Amarr, rather than actually leaving us alone. Oh and handy they snuck these changes inbetween CSM's ;)
I better get writing a letter. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
152
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Posted - 2013.04.29 11:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
I saw a quote from CCP Rise stating that these changes are set already and have only been green lit for change once released for public testing. I won't be able to quote it because I'm currently on my mobile, but what assurance can we get that you will actually push forth any and all changes that are raised, in this thread and during the more public testing, rather just continually ignoring what we've actually stated, which are serious issues. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
152
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Posted - 2013.05.03 17:34:00 -
[47] - Quote
Another 28 pages since the last Rise post, but I'm on the verge of walking away from this - I haven't heard anything confirming that they care they are destroying an entire racial line of ships, merely to satisfy the need to make everything like World of Warcraft, whilst the player base is desperately attempting to find a design for the ships that make then actually viable. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
158
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Posted - 2013.05.07 17:59:00 -
[48] - Quote
Tank Talbot wrote:Oh, stop demonizing poor CCP Rise. He has a job to do and no one is going to be one hundred percent happy with it. Have a little faith that he might know what he is on about. Do we really need our hand held, to plead for his undying attention and kisses to our buttocks? He is probably reading this or having the good stuff forwarded. DEVs have their own reasons for doing things that frankly will not always agree with our wants but really are intended for the good of the game. Maybe some of these seemingly insane capacitor stats are forward planning for whatever they intend to do with laser turrets after Odyssey?
However, starting a thread, clearly stating that you will listen to the players, before utterly abandoning them is the reason people are not happy Tank. While I admit I have been probing towards CCP Rise, I just want him to actually read what the players are stating, rather than utterly relying on the "Metrics. "
Sometimes our information comes to us via entirely different threads to this one.
Tank Talbot wrote:I KNOW its frustrating. Sure, I am REALLY unhappy with the gaps in Amarr Battleship line up and the lack of versatility and ships for roles I feel should be covered. However, I am now hoping some of that can be fixed with the naval versions next re-balance. IGÇÖd love a tracking disrupter oriented EWAR ship and a versatile gunnery combatant to compete with the Gallente Hype at the battleship level. Maybe I can get what I want then? Maybe not.
You do realise Tank, that the Naval versions of the ships are literally going to be the ships we are flying now, with just a fancy paint job. The problem most people are having with these changes is that they serve absolutely no purpose, other than to further punish players for trying to fly Amarrian ships. We don't want a ship that is stepping on the toes of 3 other ships, and neither do we want a ship that has zero bonuses to the supposed main weapons system of the Amarr.
While having a ship that does another job is always welcome, trashing an entire racial battleship line for such is never welcome.
Tank Talbot wrote:If it all ends up being a trip to a Minmatar BBQ as the roast of honour and as horrible as feared we can gather at the statue in Amarr and throw down until they get the point. Until then, letGÇÖs show some patience and maybe try to figure out why they are balancing stuff as they are. I know its hard to believe but lets assume they arenGÇÖt stupid and have a reason for doing this.
Unfortunately Tank, patience can only last for so long before we are get annoyed - given CCP's past history, it is better to err on the side of caution and understand that they don't actually have a clue what they are doing. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
160
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Posted - 2013.05.08 13:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Meghel wrote: You will have 4 mediums for Capacitor Boosters and 7 for Tank. Not enough cap ? You are not even using turrets on the Armageddon, so please, cap is the last of your problems. If you think you will have a low cap, fit Large Vampires.
Utterly and catastrophically wrong. Why should we be forced to fit 4 Cap Boosters? the Amarrian's ideal battle tactic is firing the Photonic output of a white dwarf star at their opponents, not sneaking in to within 37.5kms and sipping their cap away, all the while hoping that some Godless, Souless Machine does the work for you.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
165
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Posted - 2013.05.09 13:28:00 -
[50] - Quote
The ships are now up on SiSi if anyone is interested.
The ship skills changes are also in there for those that are wondering as well. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
165
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Posted - 2013.05.09 19:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:given that it's an amarr ship you'd think he would listen to the people in the amarr thread
Whoa whoa whoa..
That's quite the dangerous thought you have there, we don't want the ISD's to lock this thread.. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
170
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Posted - 2013.05.11 18:08:00 -
[52] - Quote
Problem is Zeb, is that the dev team (and for prominence's sake, CCP Rise) have absolutely zero chance of changing these ships to the designs they where.
Its too close to Odyssey's release to be changed without causing it to slip due to having to "re-rebalance" the Amarr back again, and there has been so little information back to us about our concerns from CCP Rise, that we have an insignificant chance that the guy actually cares any more, now that his beloved Gallente are becoming powerhouses in place of the Amarr.
I would suggest to Rise (and any other dev that is paying lip service to this thread) that those people being silent aren't willingly accepting your changes. Either they don't care, to which they have my pity, or they don't know: Stick up a Dev Blog with EXACTLY the things you are changing - individual ones for each race if necessary - place a banner into everyones game, much like you do with various PLEX adverts.
Going forward with these changes, much like I mentioned in the Battlecruisers thread a while back, needs to be taken with far more care than what is currently happening. Rushing to meet deadlines is one thing; if things don't have 100% polish we can deal with it. Rushing in things that are inherently broken is utterly inexcusable.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
175
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Posted - 2013.05.28 09:15:00 -
[53] - Quote
raawe wrote:Amarr needs complete overhaul on weapon systems and bonuses. Changes made by Rise are not so bad but they are not making me happy. I like amarr ships but atm i must avoid them.
Actually, the changes by Rise (and his subsequent fingers in ears to our concerns) are terrible
The only ship I accept here that works is the Abaddon. The reason? its lost 5% of its overall tank. Nothing else has changed. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
177
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Posted - 2013.05.28 10:31:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Oh.. and before I forget; NO PVE should NOT direct game balance of ships mainly meant for PVP!!!!!
PvP should not dictate how ship design is influenced completely either.
While EvE is pretty much PvP everywhere, the ships should be designed with balance in mind, not completely directed towards one field or the other. Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
Arline Kley
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
183
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Posted - 2013.07.23 22:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
MyNameIs Max wrote:why exactly are you bumping old threads with nonsense?
Why are you not giving an example of why she is spouting nonsense? admittedly her post is vague on the actual ship she is using, but the point is clear. If you wish, I can certainly give you an example (most likely tomorrow and to give you time to build a reasonably placed argument beyond a "hurr durr ur angry lol!" style message.)
From a pilot that has trained their skills to be as good as they can be in terms of capacitor generation, as well as weapons configuration, why should we be so heavily penalised in regards to other races? We rely on our capacitors far more than any other race, yet is it is deemed appropriate to reduce it to a level that makes it a requirement to fit exact modules, increasing homogenisation in game noted for its openness: In a PvP setting I have no worries about carrying a Cap Booster, or having a logistic's chain in effect to keep my cap active - that is part of the game I actively enjoy partaking in when I feel the desire.
What I don't see is the unfair penalty to solo pilots who generally PvE and have worked hard to create a decent fit that allows them to at least fire their weapons without having to constantly cap watch. Not everyone has friends who they can call on to offer logi support. Its utterly shaming that the game development team would allow a damaging change to go into the game unchallenged, especially when people have raised it as a major issue.
And as always, I am not against change - which I have mentioned several times in this thread and elsewhere - but changes, like the ones in recent months in regards to the ships changes, which are given to fairly junior member of staff and rushed out of the door to meet a deadline which is far to close to what it should be, are utterly damaging.
Blessed are those that carry the Empress' Light; with it they destroy the shadows |
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